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APNIC Membership and Resource Application
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APNIC Membership and Resource Application

deepikadeepika Member

Hi,

We are trying to be a member of APNIC (to become LIR for resource allocation) and get our first /24 (they still provide from final /8 pool).

During our application, APNIC hostmaster have specified following for which I am too much confused:

"Your request for addresses is for your network in the Asia Pacific region for the usage purpose you have outlined in the supporting information"

Our organization is legally registered within APAC region, and we are trying to get IP Address or ASN so that we can use it on our dedicated server located in USA for webhosting, VPN and proxy. In general our network will not be located within Asia Pacific region and such resources will be announced from different country (e.g. USA or UK....).

So, how does people who have APNIC membership/resources address such limitation set by APNIC. Why APNIC is setting limitation for us on whom to peer, where to announce.

Comments

  • alexnjhalexnjh Member
    edited March 12

    I believe it is a known fact that different RIR subnets should only be announce in their operating regions.

    Just that some RIR do not strictly enforce it.

    With IPv4 exhausting soon most RIR will be very strict on allocation so you might need a better use case to get a /24.

    Typical guy alexneo.net

    Peering AS135103

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    @deepika said: Hi,

    We are trying to be a member of APNIC (to become LIR for resource allocation) and get our first /24 (they still provide from final /8 pool).

    During our application, APNIC hostmaster have specified following for which I am too much confused:

    "Your request for addresses is for your network in the Asia Pacific region for the usage purpose you have outlined in the supporting information"

    Our organization is legally registered within APAC region, and we are trying to get IP Address or ASN so that we can use it on our dedicated server located in USA for webhosting, VPN and proxy. In general our network will not be located within Asia Pacific region and such resources will be announced from different country (e.g. USA or UK....).

    So, how does people who have APNIC membership/resources address such limitation set by APNIC. Why APNIC is setting limitation for us on whom to peer, where to announce.

    You can't use your APNIC allocation exclusively for use out of region. You CAN use some of your allocation wherever you want, but not all. You should consider ARIN or RIPE membership if you plan to use in USA or EU.

    If you still use APNIC IPs, you might find the allocation revoked one day. But for now, it would seem they don't heavily enforce. But you may struggle with justification in the future.

  • deepikadeepika Member

    We can not apply for a membership on other RIRs or NIRs because our organization is not registered on such region and have to go through APNIC directly (my country do not have any NIR).

    Will it be fine to announce it via multiple location having at least one from APNIC region (e.g. USA and India)?

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    You can apply at any RIR where your network infrastructure is physically located, including if your business is not registered in this region.

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  • deepikadeepika Member

    @Clouvider said: You can apply at any RIR where your network infrastructure is physically located, including if your business is not registered in this region.

    I tried it via ARIN before and here is their response:

    Thank you for the Create Organization request.

    The address you have listed on your request is outside of the ARIN region, and ARIN only issues resources within its region as listed here: https://www.arin.net/knowledge/rirs/ARINcountries.html. Therefore, below are your options:

    (a) If you are requesting to establish an OrgID because you will be requesting resources from ARIN, please resubmit your organization request with a legally registered business name within ARIN's region;

    (b) If you are requesting to establish an OrgID in ARIN's region because your upstream provider will be SWIPing you IP addresses, please request that they create the OrgID for you when they perform the SWIP. They can do this using the reallocate or reassign detail templates located on ARIN's website at: https://www.arin.net/resources/request/reassignments.html;

    (c) For a listing of Regional Internet Registries (RIR) and their respective regions, please reference ARIN's website:https://www.arin.net/knowledge/rirs.html.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    In that case you’d need to better explain it to ARIN.

    On that note, you’re aware ARIN is out of v4 space right ?

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  • deepikadeepika Member
    edited March 12

    @Clouvider said: In that case you’d need to better explain it to ARIN.

    On that note, you’re aware ARIN is out of v4 space right ?

    Yes, we noticed that at the time when we applied for organization creation and it was later rejected. And, I am not sure if they will accept any organization from different region even the network is located on their region.

    It would be fine for us to announce resources received via APNIC via multiple locations USA & one of APNIC country. USA being main route and other as a failover. Just curious if that is supported or not, or how other members are doing it.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    I don't think it will be accepted as a justification to have the subnets assigned. If you intend to have your whole network out of the region, you should apply where your network's going to be.

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  • ZenZen Member

    deepika said: It would be fine for us to announce resources received via APNIC via multiple locations USA & one of APNIC country. Just curious if that is supported or not, or how other members are doing it.

    Technically a majority of your space needs to be announced in the RIR region. There are exceptions I suppose (anycast for example) and the reality is that some RIRs don't enforce the rule.

    curl -L range.website

  • deepikadeepika Member

    @Zen said: Technically a majority of your space needs to be announced in the RIR region. There are exceptions I suppose (anycast for example) and the reality is that some RIRs don't enforce the rule.

    I believe we are trying to do anycast. Get IPv4 and ASN from APNIC, peer it with at least two provider, purchase VPS from providers like Vultr with BGP session and announce it there.

  • ClouviderClouvider Member, Provider

    then use this is a justification but anycast for dedicated servers will be a hard sell.

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  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    @deepika said: We can not apply for a membership on other RIRs or NIRs because our organization is not registered on such region and have to go through APNIC directly (my country do not have any NIR).

    Will it be fine to announce it via multiple location having at least one from APNIC region (e.g. USA and India)?

    That works but how do you plan to use the a /24 in 2 locations? If you plan to get a /23 or /22, then that would be fine if you had at least 1 /24 within APNIC region. But you need to justify having multiple subnets, and you really should not apply for more than you really need. A /24 is the minimum and a /23 is not hard to justify, but if you're talking about a /24 here then Im not sure what legitimate justification you have for anything larger.

    But if you only apply for a /24, and you can do anycasting with at least 1 peer in Asia, that works too.

  • deepikadeepika Member

    yes we have applied for the minimum /24

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    deepika said: yes we have applied for the minimum /24

    Well if you claim it is anycasted, then it should be fine. What you can do to actually be compliant is have your IPs announced at an Asian ISP/DC and then route the traffic to wherever the servers really are. So the IPs would actually be anycasted, but the service would still technically be a traditional setup. It's a fairly simple thing to do. You can actually just sign up with a big VPS provider that supports BGP like Vultr, and then you can really anycast your IPs form multiple pops they have.

  • ZenZen Member

    Question: do you think it is worth becoming a LIR for a single /24? Your life might be made a lot easier renting a /24 from a provider. You have the added advantage of being able to justify a full /22 with a proper LIR application down the line as you expand.

    curl -L range.website

  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    Zen said: Question: do you think it is worth becoming a LIR for a single /24? Your life might be made a lot easier renting a /24 from a provider. You have the added advantage of being able to justify a full /22 with a proper LIR application down the line as you expand.

    Even if it's cheaper to rent a /24, there are other benefits of having your own allocation direct from an RIR.

    With your own IPs, you can determine your own RDNS servers, and you can set your own route objects as you see fit.

    It also does not preclude you from applying for more /24s later. You may not be able to get the /22 of which your initial /24 is in, but you can still get upto 3 more /24s.

    The membership costs at APNIC with a /24 is not all that different to just renting an APNIC /24 subnet either. It's hard to find people willing to do it for less than US$256 /month.

  • deepikadeepika Member

    Additionally we are from LDC (Least Developed Country) and are entitled for 50% discount from APNIC.

  • ZenZen Member

    deepika said: Additionally we are from LDC (Least Developed Country) and are entitled for 50% discount from APNIC.

    Ah, that makes sense.

    randvegeta said: The membership costs at APNIC with a /24 is not all that different to just renting an APNIC /24 subnet either. It's hard to find people willing to do it for less than US$256 /month.

    €50/mo per /24 isn't hard to find. $256/mo per /24 is what I'd expect to pay if I was renting a server.

    randvegeta said: With your own IPs, you can determine your own RDNS servers, and you can set your own route objects as you see fit.

    All of this is possible when renting, it's just a little extra admin work for the LIR.

    curl -L range.website

  • deepikadeepika Member

    getting IPs from APNIC directly is a headache and need to provide lots of details.

    1. Could you please provide the two organisations whom your company is looking at potentially peering with?

    and more...

    1. Could you please outline the equipment (vendor, model & quantity) that will be deployed in order to utilise the requested address space?

    2. Could you please provide purchase orders or invoices to support your equipment requirement.

    3. Could you provide district location of your POPs along with deployment dates?

    4. Could you please list if any address ranges have been assigned, by your upstream service provider?

    5. We ask you to confirm that you understand and agree with the following before APNIC approves your application.

    • All supporting information you have provided is true, correct, and not misleading
    • Your request for /24 is for your network in the Asia Pacific region for the usage purpose you have outlined in the supporting information
    • You will inform APNIC immediately when significant changes in your use of resources occurs
    • APNIC reserves the right to review your license to use the resources at any time, including if -- your organization is found not using the address space as intended or -- your organization is showing bad faith in complying with APNIC policy or -- the supporting information you provide is found false or misleading

    Please confirm that you understand and agree with the above requirement and would like to proceed?

  • trewqtrewq Moderator, Provider

    @deepika You just wait. That's only the first round of questions. You'll have 2 more rounds after you've sent satisfactory responses to those.

    Thanked by 1hostdare
  • SplitIceSplitIce Member, Provider

    Ive found APNIC quite reasonable to deal with. Sure they ask alot of questions. But answer them well and be honest and they may be lenient like they were for us (Anycast aka not in region).

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  • randvegetarandvegeta Member, Provider

    They just ask those questions to weed out the people who aren't serious about getting IPs.

    You don't need to answer all the questions they ask so specifically. So you do not need a specific equipment list or necessarily have purchase orders, but you do need to show what you are going to use the IPs for and have your 'proof' ready for them to verify.

    They will ask some questions about your peering and may ask to provide some references of your peering partners so they can contact them and verify. TBH, considering the shortage of IPv4 space, my biggest complaint about all this hoop jumping is that it does not seem that they do enough to verify the claims are actually true, and there are a number of hoarders just collecting and leasing out IP space.

    Thanked by 1ucxo
  • deepikadeepika Member

    @randvegeta said: [...] What you can do to actually be compliant is have your IPs announced at an Asian ISP/DC and then route the traffic to wherever the servers really are.

    I am particularly curious on how to do it and let's assume following:

    • I have ASN and /24, I needed to be multi-homed within six(6) months as per APNIC rules but I wanted to avoid having multiple VPS/Servers on multiple regions to host our application/service.
    • I peered with two provider who supports BGP sessions and announced my /24 at both location. Let's say one is Vultr (AS20473) and I can not figure out another one within APNIC region (suggest me if you have good provider in mind).
    • Now, isn't this setup needs at least two servers hosting my application? How can I only have single application server on one of the provider and route another one to it?
  • hzrhzr Member

    1) If you don't plan on multihoming, then why do you have an ASN at all?

    2) Why are you trying to use APNIC resources outside of the region?

    3) Why are you complaining that APNIC wants you to use AP resources inside the AP region?

    4) Why do you think this is unfair?

    5) You're literally hosting the worst wastes of space, vpn and proxy.

    6) You can tunnel traffic from the Asia server to the non-anycasted IP on the US server so one end only needs to route traffic, but you're still horrifically abusing APNIC policy in the spirit of things.

  • deepika said: I needed to be multi-homed within six(6) months as per APNIC rules but I wanted to avoid having multiple VPS/Servers on multiple regions to host our application/service.

    Multihomed doesn't mean multiple locations. It means multiple upstreams.

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